Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

I work in custom CMOS image sensor design, targeting scientific imaging applications like electron microscopes, X-ray microscopy, and detectors for high-energy physics. Our designs aren't that cost sensitive from a unit cost perspective, because we are at most probably making several thousand of the chips. So the cost per chip can effectively range from 10-100$ at this scale, after yield losses. But the fixed costs of engineering and 'mask creation' for process nodes can range from 300k$ for nodes around 180 nm, to over 500k$ for 65nm, and above 1m$ for 28nm and below.

We can save money during initial prototyping, by creating a small test structure as small as 1mmm^2, which reduces the cost of a prototype run to 5k$ - 10k$. Some services that provide this are MOSIS [0] in the US, and Europractice [1] in the EU. But when we go to a full production run, there's no way to get around creating a 'full reticle' design, as image sensors have a physical dimension determined by focal plan size requirement of imaging application. For example, in digital camera, if a sensor is 'full frame' then it obviously has to be 36mm x 24mm, regardless of if the process node would have let you shrink it. And if you make a serious mistake, then you need to do another production run, which means you pay the 300k$ - 1m$ once again.

In terms of the circuit functionality, image sensors require a mixture of analog and digital design, but in this area, even many of the digital circuits are custom designed, rather than relying on foundry-provided 'standard cells' and an automatic place-and-route flow.

[0] https://www.mosis.org/ [1] https://europractice-ic.com/





Oh thanks, this is really interesting. Is there a limit to how far you can scale down your node to build the full frame image sensor: is 180nm the largest feasible node?

Modern commercial image sensors are made in process nodes down to 28nm [0], and for visible light have pixels measuring 0.7-1.5 μm. At [0] there a diagram which gives a feel for what technology nodes are available and used for different applications. For example, RF ICs and power management ICs also typically use larger process nodes, and not just for reasons of cost. In fact a larger node, doesn't necessarily even mean older. For example, many technologies allowing better power handling capabilities in integrated circuits have come exclusively to larger nodes.

Regarding node sizes for image sensors, TSMC built a 28nm fab recently for Sony exclusively to make their latest sensors. There was actually a HN post about that a couple years ago [1]. Also, it's important to note that in many applications, the image sensor layer is now actually stacked, with a layer of DRAM (in 45 nm, for example) between, and a ISP (image signal processor) chip on the bottom made in a smaller digital process. You can see an image of that stack up here [2].

[0] https://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2020/08/tsmc-report... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24321804 [2] https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/763/iedm-2017-sonys-3-layer-s...


This is great: thanks for all this.



Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: